“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
—Albert Einstein
As a child,Peruvian-born psy chotherapist and medical anthropologist Oscar Miro-Quesada suffered from severe asthma. At age ten, he underwent an attack during which he died and experienced himself leaving the physical plane. “Three very wizen old beings called me back and told me a lot of things about where I came from and where I was heading.” Miro-Quesada recalls. “After that I was healed and never had asthma again.”
At age eighteen, Oscar and a group of friends traveled to the Northern Coast of Peru, looking for a curandero (healer) who was reputed to be the best maker of the hallucinogenic San Pedro cactus in the world. When they arrived at his home, don Celso Rojas dismissed Oscar’s friends immediately and made him stay. Later during a San Pedro ceremony, the same three wizen old men rose out of don Celso’s mesa (the shaman’s altar). Miro-Quesada says. “I was hooked, and started an apprenticeship with don Celso.”
Hillary S. Webb: What do you mean when you say, “Part of shamanic mastery is learning to swim in this liquid universe”?
Oscar Miro-Quesada: Anyone who has done any work in shamanism knows that the universe is not a static state. It is more like an ocean, very liquid, very fluid. When doing magical flight or shamanic journeying, the soul or consciousness is actually separating from the physical vehicle and entering into that ocean of possibility. The shaman needs to learn to disengage his or her consciousness from the body and float freely in that ocean. The trick is in embracing the great mystery and in trusting that the universal world is a safe place to float. In a true shamanic journey, you need to put your personal will aside and allow Divine will to take over.
HSW: Which is probably one of the hardest parts. The death of one’s attachment to being in charge.
OMQ: A true practitioner of shamanism learns to trust there is a larger source that is guiding you and directing your journey. Otherwise, you are constantly fighting it. The currents then become very threatening and you feel like you are drowning. When you realize there is no reason to hang on, because you realize that you are already dead, then you can just surrender and become the liquid universe itself.
HSW: Hold on a second. What do you mean we’re “already dead”?
OMQ: Didn’t you know that?
HSW: I guess I wasn’t aware of that. Does this mean I don’t have to go to work tomorrow? Seriously, though, what is all this about being dead.
OMQ: There is no difference between death and life. When you die and cross over, you come to a place where you think that you are still alive. In reality, you are physically dead, but you are back in the same reality that you were before you died. Then, little by little, synchronicities start to abound. Your waking dream, your daydream, and your sleeping dream all become one and the same.
HSW: When a shaman goes on a journey, is he or she experiencing a kind of death?
OMQ: Yes and no. The aspect of consciousness that goes on a shamanic journey is the same one that leaves the physical body at the moment of death. The shaman understands that he or she can travel through the same realms that are presented at the moment of one’s physical death without having to physically die. One realizes there’s no separation between life and death, spirit and matter. All duality is dissolved.
HSW: So the answer then, is not to look for answers?
OMQ: Well, the answers will come when the time is right. When the person is ready to apply them in a concrete way to help our planet, there will be many answers. They’ve always been there and they always will be.
HSW: Toltec shaman Ken Eagle Feather said to me, “You have to know that you don’t know anything and be comfortable with that.”
OMQ: That’s exactly right. Unfortunately, I wasn’t that clear in my earlier years. I really tried to explain God and Creator through academic means. Finally, I realized that a donkey with a load of books is still a donkey.
HSW: That makes me feel silly putting this book together. This whole project has been, in many ways, my quest for answers.
OMQ: What I see you doing, regardless of what you personally want, is documenting certain people who are committed to a path of service and who can speak about where we are as a planet of people right now. And that is important in waking people up.
HSW: Do you think the current resur-gence of interest in indigenous spirituality is part of our waking up? Are we experiencing a true shamanic renaissance, or is this just a fad that will fade in a few years?
OMQ: The way I view the current emergence of a shamanic global culture taking place on our beloved Pachamama is simply the result of people having lost their connection to the sacred dimensions in life. Most of our psycho-spiritual traditions and religions have focused more on transcending the physical world and welcoming the afterlife than actually living the spirituality here and now in the kay pacha, the Middle World. Because of this, they have disconnected from our beloved mother. Hence, the devastating conditions that we now witness.
I see the indigenous wisdom teachings, especially those of South America, as being for a return to an intimate, reverent relationship with Pachamama. They focus on becoming as sensitive as one can to the touch, taste, and sounds of everything that is born from the Earth. Human beings are not separate. We are but luminous strands in the great web of life.
Most of the people who come to my trainings are looking for a change. Initially, they come for self-gain and self-healing. Little by little, they realize they are an inextricable part of the greater whole and start working more for the Earth than for themselves. That’s the relevance of these native traditions to the modern world.
HSW: So is there a definite shift happening? This isn’t just a fad?
OMQ: I find it is both. Even those people who are transforming the indigenous ways into a commercial enterprise are still touching the hearts of many. A fad becomes mainstream, and we begin to see everyone having altars in their home. So a fad is good. The more altars, the more a personal connection to the sacred is established, and the more one will feel like doing service for others. The more people that hold a common vision, especially a sacred vision, the greater the impact on the planet.
In Peru there has been a resurgence of a respect for the Indian who before was considered a lesser being. There are some major structural social political changes occurring as a result of people, especially from developed nations, honoring the teachings of our ancestors. To me, that is an indication that it is more than just a fad.
The earthquakes that are going to occur are going to be within the hearts of human beings more than on the planet. Individually, people are going to feel really off-balance, uncentered, and bewildered. On a global scale, it is going to mean a lot of crisis and chaos until we hit bottom. Our consumer society is reaching that critical bottom. Through that internal pain they are going to develop a relationship with the hanaq pacha, the upper realm, the more divine and spiritual dimension.
We’re getting there. There is a transformation occurring in the hearts of people—in our political leaders, in our techno-industrial monopolies, in our multi-national companies. God works with us, not for us. It’s our time. We need to leave this planet a better place than where we found it for our children’s children. That’s the focus.
HSW: You sound optimistic.
OMQ: I’m very optimistic, but not in a Pollyanna sense.
HSW: In terms of truly mastering this work, how far can someone not raised in an indigenous culture go with shamanism?
OMQ: As far as they want to go. The furthest we have to travel is from our heads to our hearts. If people wake up to this path with their heart, they don’t need to study with any teacher. They are already there. I always encourage the people that come to my trainings to develop their own medicine way and to trust in their own intuitive self-directed call. I am here to provide them the tools, and yet, ultimately, they have their hands and their heart. That’s all that is needed.
HSW: Where? At the level of shamanic mastery?
OMQ: People are confusing shamanism with medicine man or witch doctor or just healer. Shamanism is living life in reverence, giving gifts of Spirit to people, and developing a reverent, intimate relationship with our beloved Pachamama. More important than being a shamanic healer is to be able to do an offering to the Earth. By doing Earth healing rites and ceremonies, you re-establish a conscious, awakened, sacred relationship with the Earth. Feed the Earth first and then you will have the strength to go out on the healing path.
HSW: Our conversation so far has been all about the benefits of shamanism. Are there any drawbacks to being on this path?
OMQ: There is a danger if someone does this work without a community. Being on this path without community, without a sense of belonging, can be a very, very isolating and alienating experience. It’s hard to perceive reality in a very altered way such as this and not have people to share that vision with.
HSW: As Lily Tomlin says, “Reality is nothing more than a collective hunch.”
OMQ: I love it! Really, that is beautiful. There is another great one that goes, “Why is that when we talk to God it’s praying, and if God talks to us we are schizophrenic?”
HSW: Could this be the cause for much of mental illness? That people are having a shamanic experience but don’t have a community to share their vision with?
OMQ: Absolutely. As a clinician myself, I have found that is about seventy percent of all socio-psycotic states are spiritual emergencies. The other thirty percent are psychopathological illnesses. Have I confused you enough?
HSW: Just enough to make me want to know more.
This is an edited interview from Traveling between the Worlds: Conversations with Contemporary Shamans, by Hillary S. Webb (website at www.hillaryswebb.com ), copyright 2004, used with permission of Oscar Miro-Quesada. The entire interview is at www.mesaworks.com under (Vision Sharing)
Oscar Miro-Quesada is leading a workshop Jan 25-27. Click for more details.
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